The Cross and the Bench
Allow me to paint you a picture.
You've got two big, flat pieces of wood, and a quasi-church-coffeehouse-type building. The pieces of wood are as old as the building itself. You don't need them for framing or construction, but they're too cool and historic to throw away. What do you do with them?
One of our volunteers at the Front Porch had a suggestion: a cross! Why not? When a Christian has two big pieces of wood and a quasi-church whatever... a cross is a natural solution.
I love this guy, who suggested this. He is one of the most genuine, friendly, helpful people I know. But on this point, I had to disagree. When I see two pieces of wood that ought to be used somehow, you know what I think?
A bench. Right outside the front door. Maybe even a place for a Christ-follower to have a cigarette with a stranger (note: smoking is bad for you.)
More importantly, a bench on the sidewalk is a place for conversation. It's a place to sit down, relax, and get to know somebody. And since it's on a sidewalk, there's no telling who might walk by and want to join you, or recognize you from somewhere else and stick around to chat.
If you want my opinion about the cross... Jesus' death was the most important event in all of history (with the possible exception of his resurrection... or maybe Creation.) The cross represents the turning point of mankind, and it is the hinge (better yet, the crux) on which our spirituality turns. I love the cross.
But do I wear one? No. Do we display them in our home? Not really. Do I want to have a cross up at the Front Porch? Probably not.
Because, no matter how much you love the cross, you have to ask yourself why you would want to keep one around. If you have a good reason for it, more power to you. But I can also see some ways that being in the constant presence of symbols of our faith has brought about complacency.
What religion is Jack? Christian. How do you know? The fish on his car.
Does ABC Plumbing charge a fair price? Probably. How do you know? The cross in their ad.
Our symbols can so easily define us... to others and to ourselves. When we are surrounded by them, we feel that we have made our point. But what might happen if our symbols disappeared? What if we suddenly forgot all our cliches and buzzwords? Then how would people know what we believe?
We might have to resort to caring for the poor, visiting the sick, and listening to the weird. We might have to fall back on things like love, prayer, and worship (the real kind... from the depths of our heart.) We might decide to actually spend time with people... and be Christ to them.
I'm not saying that Christians never do these things. But if that's all we had to define us, maybe we'd be a little more gung-ho about it, don't you think?
So once again, I love the cross. But if you're out and about, and you see a little miniature bench that I could glue to my fender, call me.
Labels: church, front porch, religion
Posted at 4:41 PM
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42 Comments:
Trying to be provocative with the smoking thing, eh?
"It's bad for you." Right. How about, "It's massively addictive; it's guaranteed to cause cancer of the mouth, throat and/or lungs after prolonged use (the virtually inevitable result of addiction); it makes your breath, clothing, and everything around you stink; makes your teeth yellow; harms others who are anywhere near you; sets a horrendous example for young people; directly funds one of the most corrupt industries in the Western world..." That's a good start, at least. Read the facts.
And Christian symbols...
People who wear them simply as a "witnessing tool" need to find a more authentic and ballsy way... like, uh, living like Jesus. Perhaps they do it because nothing else about them communicates the fact that they are sold-out disciples of His.
People who wear them, display them, tattoo them, paint them, etc. may also do so as a much-needed, oft-needed reminder of the scandal that brought them salvation...of the price that had to be paid because of their rebellion...of their only source of future and present hope. We are a forgetful and adulterous people who can't seem to keep our eyes and hands off of other lovers. We do well to do all we can to remember.
Perhaps they find healing as they "meditate on the wounds of Christ", a practice commended to us by many of the early Church Fathers, and one I have found personally healing. Perhaps they display them as symbols of what they value most--or should I say, Who they value most.
Perhaps condescending stereotypes are unhelpful and unedifying.
Benches are cool.
Crosses are infinitely beyond cool.
A massive wooden cross in a coffee house would almost certainly communicate the wrong kind of message (smaller ones perhaps would not).
"Who ever is ashamed of me amidst this wicked and adulterous generation, I will be ashamed of." --Jesus
P.S. RIGHT ON about Merge, the Front Porch and Open Mic Nights. Keep it real. Keep it Jesus.
I wonder how many people will miss the entire point of the blog because they get hung up on this:
A bench. Right outside the front door. Maybe even a place for a Christ-follower to have a cigarette with a stranger (note: smoking is bad for you.)
I think it's an unneccassry distraction.
Phillip
Beloved and Anon/Phillip:
Both of you make good points about smoking. When I say it's "bad for you" it's meant as classic understatement, beloved.
And Phillip... one might consider it an unnecessary distraction, or possibly a necessary distraction. I think all three of us can agree that smoking is unwise, to say the least. But I will defend any smoker against those who judge them for it. Rock climbing and bungee jumping are just as dangerous, if not moreso, but they are certainly not sinful activities. Caffeine is also addictive (although less so) but is not sinful to drink.
Some people will walk away with my main message here, about symbols and community. Others will get hung up on the fact that I can actually imagine a person who genuinely loves and follows Christ, and also smokes cigarettes. That's ok, because I think some people need to hear that.
As for the cross, beloved, I did allow for the fact that there are good reasons to display it. I am just trying to spur people on to think about what it can do to your faith-life to be surrounded by your symbols. You're right that sometimes it can energize you, but what people need to hear is that it can also sometimes drag you down.
Symbols or no symbols, let's allow our "light to so shine before men."
Yeah, you're right. I need some heroine. Anyone interested in joining me for a hit on a bench in front of the Front Porch. I guess we all draw our lines in different places.
The cigarrette point doesn't have to be made specifically with a cigarrette. I thought it was silly. The point is made better in a generality rather than specifically. I know too many people with lung cancer.
Phillip
If someone gets hung up on the smoking thing and therefore misses the point of the post, then they should go back to their buddies at BBC and thank God they aren't like those other Christians, who they aren't even sure are Christians at all - because of the smoking.
Phillip,
I probably don't have to say this, but... there is the fact that heroin is illegal (not to be confused with "heroine", which is a female hero.)
But I am genuinely interested in what you mean by making my point with a "generality" instead of specifically. How would you have phrased that?
I've just seen in the past statements that you have made taken and turned against you. I think it should be learned from. Not that the distractions in the past were warranted but that there are things we can learn and change from misunderstandings.
What I mean by specifically and generally? Well the sub-point you were trying to make wasn't specifically about cigarrets was it? It was about something much more general.
Being provactive unnessarily can become a hindrance. I think we should be careful in how we are provactive. In other words, I don't think you should try to be provactive by saying something you think seems to be extreme. The statement was meant to be provactive and yet certain people are going to be really dismayed by the statement. Not because in general they are loving accepting Christ followers but because they have a specific issue with smoking because it has impacted their lives dramatically. I don't focus on the fact that I drink alcohol to my father since his father died of alcoholism. I don't think there is anything wrong with alcohol but it is a very hurtful subject for some. If there was a specific conversation regarding alcohol I would state my belief on alchohl but only in specific reference to it.
I think the cigarrette statement is insensitive and unneccassary. It is completely random.
Jets,
I found your statement about BBC to me just as judgemental as your perception of BBC being judgemental. I have no problem with believers finding smoking and alcohol abhorrent. I am very conscience not to drink in front of believers who I don't know specifically for this reason. No reason to cause them to stumble. I think we are being insensitive to people who might be legalistic on specific issues due to their experiences.
There is a time and place for the cigarrette conversation. I think it is insensitive to use it flippantly.
Maybe I'm just to sensitive. :)
Phillip
Oh by the way, nice blog overall.
I just got a little distracted.
Phillip
I totally hear ya, Phillip. And I do take seriously the responsibility to be sensitive and compassionate to people's painful issues.
But there is also a time to challenge. I am prepared for the possibility that someone will say, "Pastor Ryan of The Core thinks it's ok to smoke cigarettes!" I would counter this by saying, "bad idea... very bad idea, but not a sin."
I watched my wife's uncle (essentially my father-in-law) die of lung cancer. My wife and I literally watched him die. I had never experienced that before, and it was really hard. I know that my encounter with lung cancer was not as traumatic as it has been for many others, but no matter what their experiences, everyone needs to come to terms with what is sin, and what is not sin.
The smell of smoke may bring up horrible flashbacks for someone, and I would show them compassion for that, and help however I can. But if he or she starts judging the smoker, I will stand against that.
My mention of a cigarette was not a distraction... it was a very important sub-point, and it is one that I will take heat for. Part of calling sin sin, is calling non-sin non-sin.
That is fine. I still think your point would have been much better if made in general rather than specifically. Maybe I am mistaken and it really was just about cigarettes.
Herione can mean the hero who is a female and the drug. The name for the drug came from the fact that the drug made some women feel or act like a heroine.
Smoking: I wouldn't smoke as a habit because I personally would fear the addiction and the lung cancer. I don't fault my friends who smoke cigars every once in a while. I might join them sometime.
Crosses: I wouldn't wear a cross because it just doesn't appeal to me or do anything for me and I don't feel like expressing myself through the wearing of one. I don't fault anyone who does wear or display a cross although it might get annoying if done to a certain degree.
In fact the matchstick cross I made in Sunday School as a kid got me in trouble. My dad found a burnt matchstick in my room and thought I was playing with matches inside.
Anyone who loves another person is going to automatically desire and strive to do everything within his/her capability to help that person avoid things/experiences which are likely to bring them unneccessary harm.
I would like to add I appreciate the heart of the matter regarding the smoking comment. People I love have died from cigarette smoking. People I love today smoke and might just find the idea that those of us at the core would sit on a bench with them and have a conversation while they smoke a cigarette, or even some might choose to have a smoke (one) with them, anyway, they might find that a representation of our desire to accept them and not judge them. That issue is of the greatest importance in the whole scheme of things. I wish no one smoked, but I myself have sat with those who are smoking and even drinking and had a cigar and a drink on occasion when it just seemed appropriate in that setting with that person. That might indeed offend someone, but I believe as christians we are assumed to be judgmental of "sinners" because of their drinking or smoking. I would prefer to ere on the side of one drink or a smoke and continue the conversation to the level of acceptance of the individual and sharing our hearts on a deeper level. It would probably be wise to keep these ideas to myself rather than open myself to the presumption that I am not truly "spiritual". I guess I see spirituality on a very practical level, with an emphasis toward Pauline theology when it comes to personal issues regarding who we might offend. May all we do and say be in a true spirit of Love.
Angela
Little late to the party.
Bench = good idea.
Beloved 11:43, most people, especially smokers, are aware of the dangers. You sound like my mother. She means well.
It's interesting, just say the words: ciggies and smoking and everybody gets flared up.
Again, I don't have a problem with someone sitting on a bench and smoking a cigarette. I think the illustration was a distraction from the point. Unnecessary. Man, I need a cigarette right now though.
It is the equivalent to saying that Jesus might drink beer at a frat party. It is meant to stir the pot, I get that. I guess it did its job.
Have your cigarette on your bench. No need to advertise it. Do as you feel led, but respect those who don't dig it. I'm sure they probably have some good reasons for it and all of them aren't Pharisees. The point could be made much better in general terms rather than specific. If made specifically, it needs clarification. I think sometimes we try to be too provocative instead of simply trying to tell the truth.
I think Caleb's portion was the most profound. Crosses can cause you to get in some trouble.
I would also like to say that I wish Matt Stephens was my mother, after he shaves of course.
Phillip
(please note, the aforementioned has some tongue in cheek. You would hear it if you heard my voice. To Heck with it, I really do think Matt would make a wonderful mother. I also think that cigarettes are healthy and just get a bad rap. Come on, they're made with plants. Plants are always good. Anybody got any poppy seeds? Did I just cross someone's line. Ok, just kidding about the poppy seed, but tobacco is a plant.)
Somebody said something about Pauline theology. Wasn't Paul stoned on several occasions?
I want to simplify what I thought or think. I think a specific blog about smoking cigarettes on a bench with a unbeliever or believer with clarification would be more responsible. I found the sentence thrown in the midst of a blog and without clarification can and will be misinterpreted. We don't owe Pharisees an explanation but we owe it to true concerned loving believers who sometimes we just conveniently label Pharisees.
Maybe the smoking think should of just been explained a little more. Just my thoughts, not the gospel.
Excellent point Caleb. Stoners were different back then though.
Phillip
How about making a giant cross out of cigarettes?
Happy are those who value symbolic expressions,
and happy are those who like to be edgy and provocative.
Really, it's a win/win.
Hey, just for clarification. I am not the last anonymous blogger. I'm not trying to distance myself from the last comment. Just want accuracy. There are way too many people named anonymous.
I could write a separate post about smoking, but (whether it was a distraction or not) I said what I wanted to say--that I think it's ok for a Christian to have a cigarette, even though it's bad for you. Everybody knows smoking is bad for your health... the people I think are misinformed are those who think it's a sin.
I don't call them Pharisees, and I don't want to judge them the way they often judge others. I understand many people have good reasons for their powerful opinions about smoking. I would just like to gently and firml encourage everyone to make healthy choices, but not to be judgmental with those who don't.
Although we are not to try to change others, we are much more likely to pursuade others when we avoid a judgmental attitude.
good clarification on a specific point.
Ryan,
Do you have anything humorous to add? I think it is obvious we are at that point.
Phil,
I think I do make pretty decent mother, actually... seeing how I'm a stay-at-home dad and all. Thanks for the compliment.
There's no way I'm shaving.
Different note...
"You are not your own. You were bought with a price. Therefore, honor God with your body." That means more than just abstaining from sexual immorality.
Dude, if cigs weren't insanely addictive (uh, much more addictive than even Marijuana... shhh), then I wouldn't make a big deal of it at all. One smoke every couple weeks isn't going to hurt anybody. But talk to the people who said, "I'm just a casual smoker. I'm not gonna get addicted." Yeah... most foolish statement they ever made... turned them into liars is what it did. Just go look at the stats on how many "casual" smokers turn into addicts. I used to be the 'friend' that skateboarded with my homies who smoked--no 'judgment' coming from me. Just accepted them (and their behavior) for who they were (and what it was). That was the 'loving' thing to do, right? Uh... WRONG. They're addicts now, and not for a lack of showing them and telling them about the love of Christ. I would've been a lot more loving had I punched them in the face when they lit up, then snatched their cigs and smashed them into the ground with my shoe. That's real love. To hell with the patronizing, too-scared-to-hurt-feelings love. That isn't love; it's hate. Sort of like the kind of hate parents have towards their children when they don't discipline their children according to God's Word. We hate people when we don't have their best in mind, or when we're too cowardly to give tough love to people whose will-power is too weak to keep themselves on the straight and narrow.
If thinking and acting like this makes me a Pharisee, then I'll be your version of Pharisee any day of the week.
Fire away, boys!
That you have 25 comments mostly about smoking shows you have a long way to go to effectively reach believers and those who are looking for something.
Smoking is irrelevant in this context. Who among us, smokers and non-smokers alike, doesn't already know the dangers? Enough! Move on to something more relevant.
Coming not only from the "church" but also having worked deep within a mainstream denomination, I am appalled that the most important issue of all is rarely discussed, seemingly never taught, and rarely practiced intentionally, if at all.
Any seasoned Christian can tell you the two biggest commands from Jesus Himself. And no, I'm not talking about the Great Commission.
Loving God and loving others are one and the same and become the NUMBER ONE issue.
So, what does it mean, to "love God" and "love others"? If we can learn to get these two--no, again, really just one idea down and make it a practice, all the rest will follow naturally.
If not, why stop at smoking? What about all the other sins? You know the list is endless. But if we go the other direction, we wind up at love. There is no greater thing. And we know love covers a multitude of sins, including the "sins" of smoking.
I challenge the Core, its team and its family, and any other Christian believers to find out what LOVE means, and then to practice it and teach it to others.
If you do that, you'll find the effectiveness you're only now imagining.
Phillip - I thought comic relief was YOUR job ;-)
Steve - I agree 100% about aiming towards acheiving LOVE, instead of eradicating sin. The former accomplishes both, but the latter accomplishes nothing.
But I don't understand how the number of comments about smoking on this blog suggests that The Core is missing the mark. I've said a zillion times how we've got to make the main thing the main thing... and do everything with the first and second highest commandments in mind. But that doesn't mean that, when I speak or write, I'm going to sound like a broken record. Convincing people to rid themselves of judgmentalism and guilt-mongering is a very important rung on the ladder to understanding God's love. And sometimes it's hard to encourage people in this way without using specific examples, in this case, of smoking.
"We might have to resort to caring for the poor, visiting the sick, and listening to the weird. We might have to fall back on things like love, prayer, and worship (the real kind... from the depths of our heart.) We might decide to actually spend time with people... and be Christ to them."
Hmmm... Steve and I must've been typing our comments almost simultaneously. How ironic, since my comment was all about love. Steve, I'm glad you brought up the point about the main thing being the main thing, because the whole "sin" conversation has 100% to do with love (and not the absence of love).
Some people like to make a big to-do about the specks in other people's eyes to distract themselves from the logs in their own. God has clearly told us to remove our logs (confess them to him and to one another) before addressing those that others are plagued with. But it's a cop-out to approach this topic with the assumption that no one is capable of removing his/her own log, and thus to argue away the possibility of reaching out to brothers and sisters who are making sinful and/or unwise decisions. This is simply not true, and there is gobs of scripture that explicitly mandates us to (a) get the log out of our eye and (b) help our brothers and sisters in Christ get the speck out of theirs.
I am going to sound like a broken record, because people have apparently plugged their ears when I've said this previously: it is a superficial (false) love which shirks the responsibility to help our fellow humans to live the most wise, holy, productive lives they can. We're in this thing called life together. None of us can do it on our own. We NEED each other to live lives that glorify God. That means I need you... and it means you need me. We need each other to fight sin and foolishness in our lives. We cannot win the battles on our own. That's the whole point of the Church (once the evangelism part has been faithfully taken up)... to "spur one another on toward good deeds", as Phil's favorite verse says. Good deeds are not just avoiding "sins"... they are doing what is best in every situation. Again, "Anyone who knows the good he ought to do, and doesn't do it, sins." That of course is not negating the fact that we are able to do bad things. Bad is not simply the absence of the good, and good is not simply the absence of the bad.
Don't miss my point: loving people involves both helping them avoid/overcome sin and unwise living (foolishness), AND helping them live lives that fulfil their God-given potential to the absolute fullest. When we aim at anything short of this, we are simply fooling ourselves into thinking we're loving others.
And yo. Why do you all think I'm even taking part in this discussion? Hellooo... because I LOVE you, and I love the people you earnestly desire to reach with the love of Christ. It's 100% a love thing for me. And yes, this conversation matters, because it gets to the very heart of love, not just some flaky, surface treatment of it. Hey, if I didn't love you guys, I wouldn't waste my time and energy (and risk harsh criticism) talking about these things. Contrary to what some of you have undoubtedly thought at times, I'm not a glutton for arguments, nor do I get pleasure from "winning people to my side". I simply love God with all of my being and therefore want to see Him glorified in every way possible; and I love people so much that I want the very best for them (because that's what God wants). I hope you find it in your hearts to believe me, for His name's sake.
Grace,
matt
The Coreman replied to my comment, "But I don't understand how the number of comments about smoking on this blog suggests that The Core is missing the mark."
Consider a young girl abducted and forced into sexual slavery. Does it matter that we don’t even think about her or the million others like her? More often that not, society sees her as a sinner, not a victim. If she showed up at The Core, or at any of your churches, what would you say to her? “Repent”? After all, someone in your congregation might’ve seen her on the Internet and think she did those things willingly.
Sometimes we have the propensity to blame the sin solely on the sinner. Personally, I suspect most sin is a result of our environment or culture. Smoking is a cultural thing, just like eating badly, driving badly, or perhaps believing everything the church tells us. Mind you, it’s not an excuse. Sin is still sin. Perhaps the young girl sins because she doesn’t want her family injured or killed. She needs more than someone to tell her to repent. She already knows what she’s doing isn’t right, but do you think it’s going to help her by pointing that out?
So you’re going to be righteous and tell the smoker he’s sinning and needs to stop. In love. Doesn’t he already know that? The health warnings are on the very pack of cigarettes he bought! You might say it’s all about attitude. Well, we all know someone who desperately wants to stop smoking, but hasn’t found a way yet. Do we wait until they find a way before we offer them love? Do we make it a condition for our love? If we know the way to quit, then why are they still struggling? If we know how to remove the girl from her circumstances, what, pray tell, are we waiting for?!
The reasons why sin invades our lives has more to do with the lack of love than we realize. When love invades our lives—where we are—then the sins will drop off almost naturally (more like supernaturally, but you get the point—I hope). Without having to point them out. It’s happened to me. Maybe it’s happened to you. And yet we want to control it ourselves and usurp the power of the Spirit. It’s up to us to love our neighbor. It’s up to the Spirit to take care of the sin.
These past few posted comments are clearly indicative of what I stated earlier, that we rarely discuss love, seemingly never teach it, and rarely practice it intentionally, if at all. Thus we stumble over it, trying to make sense of it, or ignore it and focus on something easier to do.
Love is not an easy thing to practice, is it? It’s simple, but not easy. Even though it’s not easy, it is absolutely mandatory that we learn what it is (and what it isn’t), practice it, and teach it. Then, as I said earlier, you'll find the effectiveness you're only now imagining. Even the smoker will stop smoking.
Coreman, lurking about for a while now and you didn't miss the mark, Keep pushing on.
Steve has some good points.
Just a thought from the "unchurched" or the term I despise; "lost", it's the righteous Beloveds that make me run in the other direction. Fast. In the name of love.
I respect your passion and commitment.
Peace be with you.
Steve,
You bring up a couple of phenomenal points. First, most people recognize their own sinfulness or foolishness, even if they're not willing to outwardly admit it. Us shoving their faces in it does no one any good. I think this is something all of us here would shout a loud "AMEN!" to, including me. Second, your massively important point, is that our love for people can't end (or even begin) at helping people overcome sin and foolishness. For one, if we're dealing with people we hardly know, engaging them on matters of specific, personal sin issues is grossly premature at best and destructive at worst. But even if we do know them well, there has to be a real commitment to the whole person. In other words, Steve, if I was to approach Ryan about a sin issue in his life, in the context of a deep friendship, it would be totally different than if I approached you about one of your own. The former is understood as part of a larger commitment to love and mutual edification--the latter would simply show that I have a perverse delight in making other people feel miserable.
You obviously set up a strawman at the beginning of your last comment, but I'm not going to make a big deal about it. Really, I'd just like to go back to the original post and clarify something. There's a big difference to me between sitting next to someone on a bench who is smoking, and not acting awkward or put off by it (OK, I might act a little put off since I'm asthmatic and my life is imminently endangered by smoke) and lighting one up myself. I might even make an exception if the Christian in question was already an addict, but was willing (on down the road of the relationship) to admit that this was a weakness in which he/she was seeking the Lord's transformation.
Does that make sense? I'm not saying we should ever rub someone's nose in the dirt because they're sinning or making foolish decisions. But I am saying that we ought to do everything we can both to model a wise, holy life that we would hope others could look to as an example (people look up to us whether we want them to or not... children and youth, especially), and to offer support to those who need it. Remember..."If anyone causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for him to have a millstone tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea than to suffer God's judgment." Translation for this discussion: "If anyone of you, by your personal decision to smoke, influences someone else's decision to smoke, it would be better for you to get the electric chair than to suffer God's judgment."
Just think about it. If you're a smoker, do you want some child imitating you, and developing a deadly habit that will cut years off his life as well as making the last decades of his life on earth miserable? (No cockiness intended here, but please don't try to challenge me on the facts, because you'll make a fool of yourself. I researched and taught this stuff day-in and day-out for the duration of my last job.) Again, it's all about love. Do you love the kid who is looking up to you as a role model? Then live in a way you would want him or her to model. None of us can do it perfectly, but we can do our best, and with God's help, can do a pretty great job.
Dirtsister,
God loves you. He loves all of us. The same way a truly loving human father sets and enforces parameters on his beloved children, our Heavenly Father, God, knows what will make our lives most abundantly satisfying, and so he gave us His word, the Bible, to teach us this Way. Christians who do not point others in this Way by their words and actions are not genuine Christians, or at least they have lapsed into rebellion against God. The Christian can never remain silent about what his or her Guidebook teaches. Speaking and embodying what we have believed by faith is the totality of the Christian existence. It's inherent in our following of Christ, our Savior. Christians who try to be pseudo-humble and avoid stepping on everyone else's toes are inauthentic. They're phonies... run from them.
Please don't misunderstand me... God accepts us when we come just as we are, sins and all. There is NO sin God cannot and will not forgive. But the key that unlocks the gate to--pardon my French--KICK ASS life, both in this world and for all of eternity, is recognizing that we've fallen drastically short of God's standard, and trusting that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross and his rising from the grave is more than enough to make us right with God. This has nothing to do with our good intentions or righteous deeds. It's 100% about God's merciful favor (the Bible calls it "grace") washing over us as we believe Him by what we call 'faith'.
Sorry if I have come across as condescending. I honestly have not meant anything I have said that way. I'll say it again, because it's worth saying over and over: I love you all, including you, dirtsister. You rock.
Blessings.
Smoking does cause cancer, is addictive, and can be gross. But I really think there are awhole lot more important things out there. It seems like many Christians want some "marker" to show them where to go and what to do. I think that someone that smokes could be just in love with God as someone who doesn't. Its true, they might be making a bad choice when they smoke but I think just about everyone I meet in God's family makes bad choices. I am not excusing the bad choices. However, I am against those "markers" that many Christians use tooo often. As long as you don't smoke, drink, or cuss then you are at a certain level of Christianity. That is simply wrong. I might not smoke but I showed a lot of contempt for my body when I ate fast food all the time for a year and didn't exercise. Was I any better than a chain smoker? Only God knows. I don't think there is a thing wrong with having a cigar every once in awhile with friends. If I am afraid of being a bad influence on some then we will just smoke in private(For the record I have never even taken one puff). When it comes to those who smoke on a regular basis: I agree with Ryan when he said he wants to, "encourage everyone to make healthy choices, but not to be judgmental with those who don't." I also kinda understand what he means when he says smoking is unhealthy but its not a sin. But aren't choices that are unwise also sinful? I wouldn't have ever said long term smoking is a sin but I wouldn't have said its not sinful. There might be some attitudes that need refining (just like every other Christian and nonchristian I know). So I am saying that if someone smokes - they need to deal with some attitudes (yes sinful ones because they are not based in the truth). However, I am not any better with how I spend my time and the things I show as important.
Just a couple of notes of clarification… This isn't a response to any of the comments, just additional information you might find useful.
First, perhaps it was unfair of me to jump into this conversation without identifying myself, but such is the anonymous world of computers.
I’ve been deeply dissatisfied with “church” and organized denominations for some time now. This doesn’t mean I’m no longer a believer. Many of you can relate precisely to what I’m saying. There are several reasons, a few of which I’ll note here. [I’m not suggesting these reasons exist at The Core. I hope they don’t, but I simply don’t know one way or the other.]
First, the politics within denominations and in some church circles are absolutely absurd. I refuse to participate in such farcical nonsense.
Second, but more importantly, the church has largely ignored hard questions I’ve put to them. Through personal trials and much contemplation, difficult questions have come up that have yet to be satisfactorily answered. Questions that challenge traditional belief. Not because I want to disprove anyone or anything, but rather because I want to know truth. To avoid getting off track here, I’ll refrain from an example, but I’ve asked scholars, pastors and laypeople of different denominations. The anticipated stock answers aside, some of the questions I’ve posed have stumped them all. I’d love to see a program at a church allow discussion of the really difficult questions, and to investigate, evaluate and weigh the possible answers.
And third and most importantly, the lack of love in discussion, practice, and teaching. But I’ve already commented on that.
I hope I've provoked thinking here. If nothing else, think things through until you know why you believe what you believe.
For further reading, see my essay titled Whence the Pacific? at divurgent.googlepages.com.
Steve, I'm in agreement with you regarding disillusion of the organized church. For years I asked questions to educated associates who I respected and thought might be able to enlighten, and found the same canned replies.
I did attend a q & a session with a knowledgeable pastor who knew his history and was able to answer some of my questions. I was impressed.
At the conclusion he did tell me privately that my questions would "freak out" the bible study groups. Why? I left there feeling more confused about the church but more convinced that I was on the right track and will continue my studies and worship privately.
Steve,
Pretty sure I knew who you were from the beginning. Appreciate what you are saying but I really think this blog's motivation is to some degree love. Most of this conversation is about what is love. A lot of it is specifically about cigarettes but it is group of brothers and sisters exchanging ideas about to handle cigarettes (not really about cigarettes) in love.
Ryan, I hope it is ok for me to post this here. But here is the one and only blog I have ever done. It relates, to some degree, what is now being discussed. Well, at least one paragraph.
http://phillipscoggins.blogspot.com/
I want to apologize if I’ve come across brash or critical. I’ve had serious theological questions lately, some directly related to my life—to the point my marriage and my very life were in danger of being lost. Because of these issues and others, I’ve become increasingly dissatisfied with “church” and how they react to the hard questions, and to life-threatening spiritual issues. In short, they fail miserably at both.
Like so many others, I’m desperate to find love. No, not the kind afforded by wife and children. I have that. But there’s more than that. There is a love afforded only by God. And sure, God loves me, this I know. I’m also confident of my eternal inheritance. So what else is there, you might ask?
I want to know what love from God is supposed to be—what it looks like, because it’s not what the traditional church tells us it is. It can’t be.
An innocent husband, wife and their children march to their genocidal death and cry out to God, “Save us!” but they’re still put to a violent death. A very young girl is abducted into sexual slavery and forced to do unspeakable things, and she cries out to God, “Save me!” but her situation deteriorates even further. A Christian brother struggles with a spiritual issue and cries out to God, “Save me!” but the struggle intensifies.
Suffering is seemingly a substantial component of God’s expression of love. But suffering isn’t something we like to think of as being from God, is it? We want him to be a loving God like a proud daddy protective of his children. So something’s wrong with the way we view God’s love. If not, then why wouldn’t he answer the desperate prayers of his children in situations above? He either prescribes suffering or, at the very least, he allows it. But he always has the power to change it and, according to so many teachers, he has the will to change it. But he doesn’t. Why? [I only present this as an example, not another topic for discussion!]
There are so many questions that remain unanswered, or are debated among “scholars.” So when I study theology, I keep coming back to the one sure thing: that love, and only love, is what we should focus on. But we don’t really know what that looks like, either. If we really knew what love is and what it meant, our neighbors wouldn’t be struggling to find acceptance by buying the latest gadget or going along with the crowd in any of a variety of vices. I wouldn’t be looking for a way to keep our house from foreclosure while struggling to find employment. You know, all those “Acts” things. But we don’t really know what love is.
Me and you, we’re all in this same culture. We think we need a $250,000 house. We think we need to watch the NASCAR races. We think we need to dedicate ourselves to lawn care. To what end? We need re-evaluate our priorities and what should be important to us (and even more so, to God!).
Do you want the smoker to quit smoking? Love him on a deeper level. Give him the acceptance he craves even while he’s smoking. If he believes he makes a difference to you because of who he is even while he’s smoking, but sees how his health might affect you, he just might quit. He obviously doesn’t care if it affects him. It’s that overworked cliché: they won’t care until they know how much you care.
I used to ride a motorcycle, and loved it tremendously. But I have a wife and children, and I make a difference to them. If it was just me, or if I didn’t make a difference to them, I’d probably still take the risk and ride even if they told me I could suffer injuries or death to my own detriment. Rather, I choose not to take the risk of riding a motorcycle because I don’t want to cause suffering to their detriment. On beautiful October days, I sometimes open my garage door hoping I find a motorcycle there, until I remember why I chose not to have one.
Sometimes, even when Christians talk about love, they still don’t get it. Love is sacrifice, love is suffering.
Phillip and dirtsister, I appreciate you, and I appreciate your comments. I thoroughly enjoy discussions like this that cause me to think. I hope it’s mutual—even if we disagree sometimes. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. ~ Steve
Steve,
Rock on. Thank you for sharing from your heart. I don't mean to be patronizing or anything, but I can absolutely relate. From the sounds of my comments from time to time, you all probably think I'm some ivory tower fundie who has his head so far up the proverbial camel's a** that he can't see the light of reality. Well I want you to know that that couldn't be further from the truth. Only a couple years ago, I went through a prolonged period of 'deconstruction' in which I was all but ready to chuck my faith out the window. Ironically, the thing that kept me from doing so was the undeniable recognition that if I did so, the next step for me was suicide. Read my story if you'd like to. It was in the face of the recognition of my utter hopelessness without the Gospel of Jesus Christ that I was forced to have faith in Him even when my faith in my ability to comprehend His Word, the Bible, had faltered. But this did not come quickly. Healing and restoration came to me after I had fiercely struggled with this for over a year... and all this from a guy who had surrendered his life to full-time service to the Church. I wrestled with God as ferociously as I could... and still do from time to time (follow my blog and you'll see this).
I try to have the utmost patience and empathy with those who struggle with loving God with all of their minds, which entails asking the hard questions and working through the fiery trials that accompany this. My heart goes out to you. In fact, you are the kind of person who drives me to serve God's Church. The doubters, the questioners, the almost-ready-to-quitters are the people I feel a special calling to serve in the ministry of the Word. So if I come across completely the wrong way on blogs like this, I have a lot to learn. I thank you ahead of time for your forgiveness and your empathy.
And thank you all for the lively discussion. I think (I hope) we've each learned a thing or two from all of this.
Grace,
Wow, I don't know what else to say. I really appreciate where this is going. I am amazed by the group of men and lady that have participated so far. I really appreciate the openness, the realness of this conversation.
Steve,
I wish I knew you better. Your struggles make you more real to me. You really don't know how much knowing your struggles spurs me on. I guess it is simply knowing I am not alone on some related issues. Crap, I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way.
I hope we can all continue to listen to each others pain and help carry some burdens. I feel more like I am at church on some of these blogs (the church isn't Sunday morning) than I have when I am at some physical building with the church title on it.
We really are a family. I hope that means we really care about each other, rather than proving each other wrong. I struggle with that.
'Life together' is messy. Blogs are no exception. Bearing with one another is the name of the game. Praise God that "love covers a multitude of sins."
Beloved and Phillip, I read your individual blogs and see we’re essentially at the same place (or have been), spiritually.
Interestingly, what I’m discovering amidst this horrible station in life I’m personally experiencing is this: that even though the foundation has been pulled out from under me, the walls have come down and I am left cold, misunderstood, and vulnerable with no defense, no safety, and no liberty, I still find myself in the presence of God. And I stand amazed that all he wants is for me to know him, and know that he loves me.
So, I want to know and love this God in the manner he wants me to know and love him. If that means I have to go through this suffering to get there, so be it. I don’t like it, and I find it very hard to be content in it (do I have any contentment at all?), but if this suffering keeps me in his presence, then lead me on!
Thanks to each of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences here. Because of you, I’ve come to know our Father a little more. Maybe I’ll get through this suffering yet.
Thank you, Steve.
You know, I find it fascinating that both Jesus and the apostle Paul promised us we would suffer for our faith. This is a guarantee for the true disciple of Christ. I have a pretty strong hunch that those in other countries who are more outwardly persecuted and discriminated against because of their faith do not suffer the 'intellectual suffering' that we do. Conversely, perhaps the suffering of the mind and soul is one of the few options available to God for bringing about suffering that directly results from our faith (i.e. not suffering due to worldly losses, such as loved ones perishing, financial loss, etc.) to we 'priviledged' Americans.
I think you're dead on to something, Steve. A little over a month ago, I took an intensive Christian history course, and one of the things that glared at me during my eight day history binge was the role of suffering, both in the life of the individual Christian and in the growth of the Church. Christians in the earliest centuries A.D. longed to suffer for Christ, and more often than not embraced physical persecution--even torture and brutal death--with joyous enthusiasm. Once the persecution had died down (4th c.), personal asceticism (private monasticism) came into vogue, followed by communal asceticism (monastic communities). If someone else wasn't going to cause them the priviledge of communing with Christ via suffering, they would subdue their own 'flesh' and wills to obtain this supreme relationship with Him. All this to say that the suffering Christian is the Christian who enjoys the most intimate fellowship possible with His Lord and Savior. But of course it makes complete sense, right? When everything else is stripped from us, to whom or to what have we yet to cling? Only Christ! What a glorious truth!
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